Episode 027: Kaleem Clarkson, Drupal Front End Developer, Inclusion Evangelist

Kaleem Clarkson, Drupal Front End Developer, Inclusion Evangelist and Co-founder of Blend Me, Inc. sits down with Ivan Stegic to discuss Kaleem's Drupal origins, as well as other related issues.

Here's what we're discussing in this podcast:

  • It's only rock 'n roll
  • Concerts for Charity
  • DrupalCon Atlanta
  • The Big Easy, Portland
  • Trey Anastasio, Bob Weir and Béla Fleck
  • Stephen King
  • Kennesaw State University
  • Center for Excellence in Teaching and Learning
  • Atlanta Drupal Users Group
  • Mini DrupalCamp
  • Drupal Diversity and Inclusion (DDI)
  • Code Switching
  • C'mon down

TRANSCRIPT

IVAN STEGIC: Hey everyone, you're listening to the TEN7 Podcast, where we get together every fortnight to talk about technology, business and the humans in it. I'm your host Ivan Stegic. In this episode of the podcast, I'm chatting to Kaleem Clarkson who is a Drupal front end developer and entrepreneur, based in Atlanta, GA. Kaleem, welcome to the podcast.

KALEEM CLARKSON: Hello everybody. Thank you for having me.

IVAN: It's a great pleasure to be talking with you. Now I think that I might have sold you short on the initial introduction by saying you're a front end developer and entrepreneur because I've seen your LinkedIn profile and there are many titles on that profile. You are what seems like everywhere.

KALEEM: Yeah. I kind of like to do a lot of things a lot of that is old history. Early on in my career I started my own nonprofit in college. I had a lot of fun with that called Concerts for Charity. We booked a lot of concerts all over the place got to work with some cool artists. We got to book Blind Melon on their comeback tour. That was cool. Slick Rick. Uh, I don't know. I don't want to name drop. Sorry.

IVAN: Well you just did but that's okay. I'm going to assume they're metal...

KALEEM: Well, yeah. Yeah, we did do a lot of metal shows. I guess Blind Melon was kind of like, remember the Bumblebee song?

IVAN: Oh, yeah.

KALEEM: So unfortunately the singer passed away years and years and years ago, but they made a little come back and we were like one of the first venues to be able to book them in Portland Maine at a club called The Big Easy back in the day. So yeah, I mean that was really fun. So that was kind of like where I started. My first interest was definitely nonprofit life, and we ended up doing a lot of great things. We did a documentary with Trey Anastasio from Phish. It was with a voter registration group, they were so great. Andy Bernstein, it wasn't Rock to vote. It was A Call to Action was a documentary with a nonprofit called Headcount. There we go. I knew it was gonna come to me eventually if I kept talking. It was really neat. They're a great organization. They still exist. They started in the jam band scene kind of and you know, they just registered voters at concerts, plain and simple. We were able to connect with them and we did this documentary. That was great. Their board of directors is awesome. They have you know, Bob Weir from the Grateful Dead on there, you know Bela Fleck from Bela Fleck and the Flecktones and so we were able to record this documentary with those artists and we got the premiere it on HBO in Manhattan, so that was pretty dope. That was that was pretty cool. So yeah, there was that and then I kind of moved on from there. Moved to Atlanta with my wife, and my wife and I moved down here and it's been great. We've been here about ten or eleven years. I work at Kennesaw State University. I work for the Center for Excellence in Teaching and Learning. So I owe all my Drupal education to Kennesaw State.

IVAN: Thank you.

KALEEM: Pretty much how many Drupalers come aboard, you know, my boss came to me and said I need a password protected website for our accreditation reports. I go to the IS department and they're like, yeah, there's this thing called Drupal here you go. And I think that was Drupal 6, the tail-end of Drupal 6. So, I started like a like a lot of people start. I downloaded the the tarball, installed it. I wasn't allowed to add any modules because that was controlled by the University and then I just kind of grew from there. I remember after going support, how do I learn about this Drupal thing? And they were like, uh, you need to go to these meetups. That's probably your best place. So I showed up at one of these meetups in Atlanta and I show up and the place is packed and, all these people with Mediacurrent jackets on. It kind of took off from there. So, I currently still work there and then most recently, my wife and I started our own consulting company. So it's been a fun ride. I like to do a lot of things. And then with the Drupal Community as far as the Atlanta Drupal's Users Group, I just got more involved with the Atlanta Drupal's Users Group. And at the time I believe, Mediacurrent was kind of running all of the DrupalCamp Atlanta for a long time, and they just you know, they blew up with the ton of work and they just like hey, we need a break for a second because we haven't really really big client. I'm not sure if I can say what league it was but it was a very big sports league. So, I stepped up and said hey, you know what? This is what I do at my university job. I organize a lot of conferences, for faculty development. So teaching faculty how to teach layman's terms. If my boss ever hears that, he'll kill me because development is so much more than that, but for most people that's what I tell them. So yeah, that's how I got involved and then I stepped up and so I'm in my fourth year at Druplacamp as a project lead so it's been really exciting.

IVAN: Thank you for doing that. Volunteers don't get enough praise and thanks across the many different camps and cons and industries that they deserve. So thank you.

KALEEM: Appreciate that.

IVAN: Thank you for stepping up.

KALEEM: A lot of people ask me why, why do you do it?

IVAN: That that was actually going to be my next question. It seems like you were thrown into Drupal because you wanted to achieve a certain outcome.

KALEEM: Absolutely.

IVAN: But you stayed with Drupal. You were part of the community. You're continuing to give back, you're organizing. Why? Why? Why?

KALEEM: This is gonna sound odd. But so, you know, in college I had a pretty good time. Okay. Went to college in Wooster, MA. And I went to college at the time Worcester State University is about 45 minutes west of Boston.

IVAN: And you're from Maine, right?

KALEEM: Right. I probably should have said that first. I'm originally from Bangor, Maine. So I grew up in the whitest state in the country believe it or not.

IVAN: I didn't know that, all I know about Bangor, Maine is that it is what seems to be in the most northeast corner of the United States you could possibly be in and maybe there's one or two other places.

KALEEM: I think there's obviously some... Bangor is only about halfway up the a little bit more than halfway up the state. So there's more but I think that's the last airport.

IVAN: Is it really?

KALEEM: Yeah, the most people associate Bangor with Stephen King, of course. Hi, Mr. King!

IVAN: And Paul Bunyan.

KALEEM: And Paul Bunyan, yes. So hi, Mr. King, hopefully you doing well, it's Kaleem! It was great growing up as a very safe place to grow up but it's kind of funny a lot of my childhood experiences I'm realizing were valuable experiences to kind of teach other people about diversity and inclusion. So it's been kind of it's been kind of rewarding I guess from that from that standpoint. So but anyway back to why I do things, voluntarily, so I went to college had a great time. I played Division 3 college football there. And basically we threw a ton of parties... like when it comes down to the basics... we just threw lots of parties that I actually, you know, I actually enjoy throwing parties. So I like to put on a good shindig and make sure people are having a good time. So, that's how Concerts for Charity really started. I was like, I want to do do something good for people, but at the same time I want to have a good time.

IVAN: You want to have fun and do good at the same time...

KALEEM: I mean, it just makes sense. 

IVAN: Absolutely!

KALEEM: You know, so that's kind of you know, some of my motivation for you know doing DrupalCamp Atlanta, I want to make sure everybody has a great time. So I've just kind of morphed into kind of a weird like event planner from college. So yeah, that's why I like to do it like to do, make sure people have a good time.

IVAN: When is this year's DrupalCamp Atlanta?

KALEEM: You had to do that to me!

IVAN: I'm so sorry!

KALEEM: I want to say it's November 8th... it's drupalcampatlanta.com. Call for proposals are not open quite yet, but just keep an eye out follow our Twitter, @DrupalCamp_ATL, you can just start just you'll find us. DrupalCamp Atlanta, when we stepped up the kind of take it over as a user's group, we decided to bring it to Kennesaw State University, which where I work now and, it was just easier for us to be able to get the venue. And it was great! We had it there for two years, and that was actually where Dave Terry and the Mediacurrent team did the very first DrupalCamp was kind of like a homecoming type of event. And last year, we just decided based on the feedback, everyone was like, you know Kennesaw's a long way from the airport.  It's about an hour ride. So, we decided to take a chance, take a huge risk and just go straight hotel. We did a contract with a hotel in Buckhead. Which is kind of like the tech center of Atlanta, it's where Atlanta Tech Village is, where a lot of startups are, and it was great. It was it was fun because basically people stayed in that hotel. They went right downstairs to all the sessions were and you know, that was it. So, we're there again and it is November 8th through the 10th. So, a day of training and then a morning of training. So, it's almost like three days really. We have one day that's one dedicated to all day trainings, then on Friday we have a morning training. And I don't know if anybody else does it this way? So all you organizers out there let me know.

IVAN: Actually, I've been part of the Twin Cities DrupalCamp organization over the last few years, and we've typically had full day trainings on Thursdays, do two session days... so Friday and Saturday, then sprints on Sunday.

KALEEM: Okay. Okay.

IVAN: Yeah and it's it's a lot of work to put on a camp that's four days long. I don't know how it happens. But it does, it happens... people do it. You do see Saturday session attendance does seem to kind of drop down. We don't see as many people on Saturday as you do on the Friday. And we've kind of changed it in the last few years. I don't actually know what's going on this year. I haven't been involved in this year's organization at all, but I do know it's coming up in June in the Twin Cities. So we would love to have you visit us if you have a spare weekend.

KALEEM: For sure. Yes. Yes, a spare weekend. Of course, of course. The one thing that we did differently, because that was actually one of our issues was Saturday attendance is that so Thursday is a full day training then Friday morning are half day trainings.

IVAN: Why do you do that?

KALEEM: Because people really enjoy the trainings. A lot of beginners come to DrupalCamp Atlanta. And then you also do have the advanced people. So I just feel like the value of trainings -- you get a lot more out of them versus a 50-minute session. So, we decided that the half morning trainings work, and then we don't start the Camp, as far as concurrent sessions until 1:30. So, there's not that many sessions on Friday, but we have our little after party Friday night and then we load Saturday so that people don't leave. 

IVAN: That's really interesting approach. Your training sessions, are they sponsored? Like, does Pantheon do a day of training, or does Four Kitchens come in and do headless. I know we've done that in the past. Or are the trainings designed in a different way?

KALEEM: I think it's probably the same same thing. We just reach out to different trainers. It was funny. I was talking to Mike Anello one day. I was like, you know, I feel bad going back to the well should I say because we have been pretty successful of not reusing the same trainers as much, but then last year it was just getting difficult because you know, there's only so many people that do trainings. Yes, there are great companies that do great work for building websites, but I have kind of a bias in faculty development and I listen to all of my associate directors who are you know, all above me and watch what they do, and there's a major difference to being a content expert versus a good teacher. That's why teaching centers actually exists. I don't know if all you know this but guess what a lot of Faculty don't get any training and teaching before they go in the classroom. Just a little just a little tidbit.

IVAN: There's no real time like shadowing someone? 

KALEEM: Now you get a PhD you're thrown right in the classroom. We like to go after the organizations that do trainings. I was talking with Mike Cannel {inaudible} is a training company. She is... what's-her-name Susanna... don't kill me Susanna... I'm not even gonna attempt to say your last name from Evolving Web from Canada.They do lots of trainings, Turning Leaf I think Big Leaf, Man, I should have had all these companies listed. I'm still sorry guys. If I'm destroying your company titles, I apologize. We'll hook you up in Drupal Camp Atlanta.

IVAN: Suzanne Kennedy. Oh, Dergacheva.

KALEEM: We actually talked and she taught me how to say it. Dergacheva. Let's go with that. So anyway, we try to go after companies that are actually doing training as a business. And I was talking with Mike, I feel bad because you know, there's only so many companies that do trainings all the time. And he's like don't feel bad, that's what we do for a business. It's a great opportunity for all of us. We're actually honored to come here. So it was very nice to hear from of how he thought from his perspective. So yeah, we reach out to them. We don't pay our trainers, they contribute their time, and we try to keep the training costs as low as possible. Just basically to cover catering.

IVAN: Do you guys also do BOFs?

KALEEM: That's one area that we have to do a little bit better. BOFs, you know our camp ranges anywhere from 180 to 200 people. I know that's decent size for some camps but you know, like compared to you know, Drupal Corn and even Mid Camp must have more than that for I think it's getting much larger.

IVAN: BADCamp and NYC as well.

KALEEM: Yeah, it's just like when you're organizing you just doing so many things in like the BOFs or the one thing that just kind of always just fall off our radar, because there's only always only so much room space, especially, you know, because we are doing a different model, by using hotel. Hotels are very expensive. There's a lot of risk associated like our contract, I think was about $30,000, hotel room guarantee. So space was limited. So we just we just didn't do it.

IVAN: So at Twin Cities Drupal Camp, we rely quite heavily on the Drupal Association for all of the fiscal responsibilities with putting our camp together, said that it's really expensive to get a hotel in the mix. I know that using an University or any other location, you still have to sign a contract you still have to pay for it. Do you also use the Drupal Association or do you have some other format for your camp?

KALEEM: We do not. We do not use the Drupal Association. We have our own... but you know what? I think I talked about this once on the Lullabot podcast. That's one piece of advice I would give to organizers is go ahead and incorporate and get your own LLC. We have our own LLC. We have our own.

IVAN: So you're actually a for-profit. You're not not a non-profit.

KALEEM: Correct?

IVAN: That's interesting.

KALEEM: We're an LLC. I guess technically where they you know, how you've seen those commercials where they say we are a not for profit, there's actually a difference between the two. So yeah, I guess we're registered as an organization, a not-for-profit, but that's not the non non-profit 501 (c) 3 status that most people think. But we are actually in the process of, you know, we're set up, we have bylaws. We have our official board. We have official voting procedures. So we are set up to actually apply for 501 (c) 3 status. We just haven't done it yet. So yeah, we don't use Drupal Association at all. I believe they take a percentage of funding, I think it was 7% the last time I checked and you know what 7% to us is a big deal.  We just kind of do our own thing. Luckily thank you so much to all our sponsors, you know if it wasn't for you we couldn't do it. So we've just been very lucky and again, a lot of most of our success is because of Dave Terry and Mediacurrent. They were able to pass on all of that knowledge, pass on the sponsor contact information. You know, sensitive information to just pass off to a bunch of volunteers. We built in that trust, and that was a huge reason why it's successful.

IVAN: What are your current passions? I know that when I first saw you speak, it was as a person asking a question in the Drupal Diversity and Inclusion session that I went to, and I was struck by your story about how you came to be involved in DDI, and it seems to me to be one of your passions and I was hoping you could kind of tell the same story about how you got involved.

KALEEM: Yeah, I wish I could remember what question I answered.

IVAN: I don't remember what question it was, either!

KALEEM: So I think I remember, so I just got up and I just said, you know, a lot of people jump to the conclusions. So first off, let me just first say... diversity is a very fluid topic, it's changing every second and there's a million people out there that say they're experts. And I always laugh at that because it's like, man, how you going to be an expert on this topic? It just changes every single day, it changes so frequently, and it's really about people talking about their experiences. That's how I feel, so don't destroy me, people out there because I know that there are people that are love to destroy me on diversity issues. But it really kind of came about by accident really, I mean, I really had no intent to get into diversity inclusion and again, it's probably because of where I grew up, you know. I grew up in a situation where I didn't know any different as far as being you know the quote-unquote token black kid everywhere. I'm always that person, and I had to learn how to adapt frequently. It's funny because its actually a real term that called code-switching. I don't know if you've heard of that term.

IVAN: Code switching? Yes.

KALEEM: Yeah code have you heard of that term?

IVAN: I have but I haven't heard of it used in the same -- in the context that you would describe.

KALEEM: Yes. So, code-switching in DDI is a situation where, you know, you talk one way around your friends, but then you have the ability to change how you talk or how you act based on your environment. 

IVAN: I've experienced this my whole life! So I now I have a name for what it is. I grew up in South Africa to parents that immigrated from Croatia. So I spoke Croatian and thought Croatian at home, but when I went to school, it was all English from a South African point of view. That's code-switching.

KALEEM: Yeah, being able to you know, of course is going to be who were saying. Well guess what you shouldn't have to code switch. You should be able to be yourself. And look I agree with those sentiments of course, but I'm also a very, maybe me being from the Northeast too kind of makes me a little bit more harsh I guess, but I'm also kind of a realist, you know. I know that's how it should be but that's not how it is. So, yeah, I guess I do have some privilege there because I've always been able to code switch my whole life. So I I didn't realize that I had that ability. So, you know, I saw some posts on drupal.org and I was like, well, I mean, I don't see very many people that look like me. Maybe I can provide a prospective that's different and a perspective that is gonna kind of go against the grain like, you know, you see an African-American on a DDI team you're going to make an assumption that you know, there's a certain tone, there's a certain angle that they're going to play, and I just feel like I do provide a different perspective. Oh, yeah, and I remember what I when I talked about was... they were talking about how do we get underrepresented groups involved with Drupal more often than not? We need to provide financial scholarships so that we can get more underrepresented groups involved. The one thing I feel like we just need to be a little bit careful of is jumping to conclusions. So, I'm from an under-represented group, but I didn't need any help financially, you know what I mean, sorry, I'm sure Kobe Bryant kids don't need any help financially or LeBron James' kids don't need any help financially. It's all coming from a good place. And that's probably a barrier for a lot of under-represented groups, but that's not the barrier for all. You know, we're in a situation right now in society where you know, you can't be right in the middle. You know, you kind of are far one side of far the other side and I feel like I put myself right in the middle.

IVAN: I think it's important to be centrist. I think we're all fundamentally centrist. It's the society that we live in and the experiences that we have that push us in one way and another. We kind of need that and yearn for that balance. And you know, what? It's hard to be in the middle. It's really easy to go extreme, because that's what you can you know, truly realize your fears and just let them, you know, let them be a bad thing on the world, right?

KALEEM: There's a group for you, right?

IVAN: There's a group!

KALEEM: If you all the way to the far left, there's a group for you. There's support for you. So it's natural to be that way. Right? There's a group all the way to the right. You know, like I remember someone asked me a while ago, I think it was in college was like, oh, how come you don't hang out with the basketball team? What does that mean, bro? I mean, I don't even understand what that means like, I like metal music and I like, you know partying so whoever likes those things. I don't just hang out with some people from the basketball team, but they were also people that had multiple interests too, but it wasn't like, you know, they're like, oh, why aren't you hanging out the basketball team? What place? Hey, I'm a football player and then be like, you know we go out.

IVAN: Just for those who don't know what DDI is and what Drupal Diversity Inclusion is... can you give us a quick description of the group, and maybe when it started?

KALEEM: I don't know the answers to all that.

IVAN: I have two thoughts. I think, I think DDI started two years ago.

KALEEM: So what's funny is there's a website called Drupal Diversity, which I did have the pleasure of working with some people in the theming. It was fun to do that with everybody.

IVAN: drupaldiversity.com

KALEEM: Let's see, the history, Nikki Stevens gave a presentation and started the group. They don't have a year on here, which they should have a year on here.

IVAN: We should open an issue in the queue.

KALEEM: Nicki if you're listening, I feel like you should put the year... oh, DrupalCon New Orleans.

IVAN: New Orleans would have been 2016.

KALEEM: So I just saw the channel and jumped in. Saw a lot of conversations. And you know again, that's something that my wife and I also stumbled upon as far as you know from the consulting side. And I figured that I should lend some of my personal experiences and help out. So, that's really what I have for it. There's a whole bunch of other people have done a lot more work than I have in the initiative, but I felt like you know it is a place where I should try to help, because I could definitely provide a... because a lot of times in these initiatives... and that's actually something that I also brought up in that thing... a lot of times in these initiatives, there aren't very many people of under-represented groups that are actually participating. So I kind of looked at like who you know participating. I'm like, well, I feel like the because diversity is a lot of things. So I'm sure there's you know sexual orientations how people identify, religion... there's a lot of things right but visually there weren't there wasn't that much like I felt like you know why I should definitely I shouldn't be on the sidelines for this I should definitely help. So that's really where I came from.

IVAN: And I think you're right. I think that's you have to... in my opinion, if you want to see additional diversity being modeled through the rest of the community, you have to... not be modeled, if you want additional... if you want diversity in the community, and you want more participation and involvement, it's easier if you as a community member see that behavior being modeled for you, because then you know how you might want to behave. And so I felt kind of bad when I thought... I want to be part of this, but I'm just gonna join the channel and then what? So I don't know how like... I don't know if that's good or not? And I think that xjm or Kathy or one of them said something like, that's okay... you can join the channel, and you can participate by lurking, because when you're lurking, you're actually seeing that behavior be modeled, and when you see how that behavior is modeled you very easily can take it out into the community, and remodel that to your peers in IRL, in a camp setting, in your daily work life. And so that actually made me feel like... oh, it's okay that I'm just here watching because I'm actually learning something subconsciously.

KALEEM: You know and that's the thing. It's like... I've said some interesting things before where people probably just looked at me crazy. But like, you know, I was in one of those roundtables... private roundtables....

IVAN: Panels.

KALEEM: I told a story where I was like what you know, I'm a different animal in this field because it's just how I am and who I am. In high school I had a beer with a skinhead before. People just...  I wish I had a camera. Oh, I'm gonna call you out Fatima. I'm gonna call you out. I'm sorry @sugaroverflow. You should have saw her face. She was like, what? Oh my God! No way! But uh, yeah because I was like... I had to know I was so curious. Why the hell do you hate me? You don't even know me. I mean we are actually drinking the same beer and actually you're wearing a shirt of a band that I like. So we had a crazy conversation. I mean, I wish I could remember what we were talking about. But of course, we didn't hug it out and nothing like that. But at the end of the day, I feel like of course I wanted to you know, I was of course, I had feelings inside of I shouldn't be talking to this person. I can't stand this person but you know, I heard some things that he said from his point of view. I didn't agree with it, but then he heard some things that I said and maybe he agreed with it or not. And the night was fine after that, but like... you have to be able to... you need a safe space. That's what's great about working at Kennesaw State University is we have tons of resources and trainings and academics are always researching this stuff and they're very thoughtful. And we attended a safe space training... and it's a training so that you make sure everybody feels included, and one of the areas that I always thought was interesting as far as safe space that no one really kind of touches upon is sometimes people want are curious and want to ask questions. They shouldn't be dragged across the coals because they asked a question that they're honestly curious. The question could be offensive, so like how is someone going to learn if we can't talk? And someone the other day was like well, how did you stumble upon doing diversity consulting? And I'm like, I don't know somebody asked us. Well, you know, they probably asked you because they felt comfortable. My wife is white. We have a biracial family. Maybe that comfort was enough for them to say hey, we have a problem. Can you help us? And explain and maybe they were comfortable saying why they were they were uncomfortable. So, I always say diversity is about being comfortable being uncomfortable. Like... it's okay to feel uncomfortable.

IVAN: That's a great way to summarize it. It certainly is. I do see the slack channel on Drupal slack the Diversity Inclusion channel as being a safe space. I know, like that's one of the two or three channels that I'm actually following, and it's most certainly a safe space where you can say something and not worry about the backlash and you can... but I do think it takes time to get used to that.

KALEEM: Of course, you know and someone's response might be a little harsh, but at the same time, I think there's other people that jump in and say hey no, it's okay. That's a good question. And actually this is why, I remember someone posted like hey, this is a blog post I'm writing. Can you provide us some feedback? And they got crushed but like other people made them feel okay, like no. First off, we're not attacking you. We are very proud and happy that you asked the question. So, don't, please don't take any of the criticisms as attacks on your actual question, we're providing the feedback. So, that's the part that's really been intriguing. My boss has had a huge impact on me. He's very well known in the factor development field and he talked a lot about LGBTW. So, without him without the my colleagues at work, I definitely wouldn't have a lot of this knowledge that I have. So, again we are all very comfortable with each other. So we ask all sorts of ridiculous questions.

IVAN: And also you're really nice and easy to talk to so I think that helps too.

KALEEM: Yeah, I try to be... that's right.

IVAN: Well, I don't know what else to ask you. I mean, we're kind of running up against our kind of soft limit of 30 minutes. I feel like I do have a whole lot more to ask you but we're gonna we're gonna have to wrap it up. Do you have anything you wanted to say or ask?

KALEEM: I don't know. Let's see. You know the put me on the spot here.

IVAN: I know. I got to put you on the spot as well. That's okay.

KALEEM: I gotta do my you know, if I'm not marketing I'm not doing my job, right? Okay also have minicamp online coming up in June.

IVAN: What is that?

KALEEM: It's minicamp online. So what we've decided is the... minicamponline.org what we've decided as the Atlanta Drupal Uses Group is... we no longer do meetups, because it was very difficult anyone's ever been in Atlanta, traffic is very difficult. So it was hard for people to get to a place in the city at the right time. So we decided look why don't we take the money that we make from DrupalCamp Atlanta and try to put on other programming at a much reduced cost to the community. So, the first year we did minicamp as a single day track in person Camp. It was great. We had about 100 people. It was awesome. But then we realized you know what maybe we should try this thing online. So, this is our second year doing online. We did it last year. It was great. I think the call for proposals has already ended, although the link still up there. So yeah, we're gonna have Drupal Minicamp Online is June 7th, Thursday June 7. It's very affordable. It's like, you know twenty, fifteen or twenty five bucks or something like that. We're gonna have some great speakers and you're going to be able to attend the conference right from your office, right from your computer. We use this, I can't remember the platform that we use, but basically it's really cool, you know, you can chat and ask questions and it's really neat. People enjoyed it last year. So, We have many Minicamp coming June 7h. And of course. DrupalCamp Atlanta. We need more presenters. We want we want to break the 300 mark. So Hotlanta in November! If you're in the North, it's still about 80 degrees, 75, 80, so come on down and enjoy it. And, I have to say that's probably about it.

IVAN: We'll put those links in the transcript. They'll be on the website as well. So that's minicamponline.org for the one day track, June 7th.

KALEEM: That's correct.

IVAN: There's the Atlanta User Groups. DrupalCamp Atlanta from November 8 to November 10. That's a Thursday through a Saturday. The website for that is drupalcampatlanta.com. Kaleem, it's been a great pleasure speaking with you. Thank you for your time. Great conversation. You're kclarkson on drupal.org. And @kaleemclarkson on Twitter. And I don't know how many times I've had to prevent myself from saying Kelly Clarkson.

KALEEM: Actually Kelly's my cousin. We're tight.

IVAN: Oh you are.

KALEEM: We're cousins... cousins from another mother, of course, right?

IVAN: Thanks very much for your time.

KALEEM: Awesome.

IVAN: You've been listening to the TEN7 Podcast. Find us online at ten7.com/podcast. And if you have a second, do send us a message, we love hearing from you. Our email address is podcast@ten7.com. Until next time, this is Ivan Stegic. Thanks for listening.

Ivan Stegic

Founder and President
 
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Ivan Stegic

Words that describe Ivan: Relentlessly optimistic. Kind. Equally concerned with client and employee happiness. Bowtie lover. Physicist. Ethical. Lighthearted and cheerful. Finds joy in the technical stuff. Inspiring. Loyal. Hires smart, curious and kind employees who want to create more good in the world. His favorite things right now: the TEN7 podcast and becoming the next Björn Borg.