Nancy Lyons: It’s Not About the Work, It’s About the People

Our guest is Nancy Lyons, founder and CEO of Minneapolis-based digital agency Clockwork, and tireless advocate for equality, diversity and inclusion. Because of her focus on “life balance,” Clockwork is consistently ranked as a “best place to work.” Nancy and Ivan discuss the ways they both strive to make life better for the humans in their companies.
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Nancy Lyons

Founder and CEO, Clockwork

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Starting Clockwork after the tech boom and bust

It’s about the people, not the work

Gen-Xers’ expectations about work

Cultural contribution, not cultural fit


IVAN STEGIC: Hey everyone! You’re listening to The TEN7 Podcast, where we get together every fortnight, and sometimes more often, to talk about technology, business and the humans in it. I’m your host Ivan Stegic. My guest today is Nancy Lyons, founder and CEO of Clockwork, an award-winning, independent digital agency. She is someone I’ve admired from afar for as long as I’ve run TEN7 and I’m so glad to be speaking with her today. In addition to leading Clockwork, she’s made her mark on many other areas of life including thinking and speaking about the intersection of leadership, entrepreneurship, technology and people. She is squarely focused on the people that she works with, and she sees work and the culture of work as the next economic frontier. I promise to ask her about that. Nancy, hello, it’s so good to have you on the show.

NANCY LYONS: Hey, thanks Ivan, I’m happy to be here.

IVAN: I was just mentioning to you earlier about how the last time I saw you, you were giving a talk at the Minneapolis Club, and I saw that cross my email and I thought, I’ve got to go listen to Nancy. It turns out it was an all-women’s breakfast, and I was there with my adult son, who was also not a girl, and [laughing] it was kind of funny, actually.

NANCY: [laughing] Yes. I remember because you were the men in the room. I thought it was very bold of you to decide to come to a women’s leadership breakfast.

IVAN: Well, I thought you had something to say, so I wanted to hear it. And I believe I asked a question, I don’t remember what it was, but I’m glad we had a chance to talk there, and that we have a chance to talk here, as well. So, you started Clockwork about 20 years ago. You’ve grown it into a well-respected, human-focused company, on the very forefront of digital here in the cities, and I would argue nationally as well. You’ve had a number of accolades for being the best place to work and based on anecdotal evidence I’ve heard of people who have worked for you, and continue to work for you, it sounds like that’s true. So, what did the first year of Clockwork look like? When did you start it? How many people were around you when you started it? What was that like?

NANCY: Sure. The first year of Clockwork was 2002, and the internet was still the Wild West, and people were sort of reeling from the recent tech crisis where we had overvalued technology and the tech market crashed, and everybody was trying to figure out what the future had in store for technology, especially internet technology.

And I also think we started our company shortly after 9/11. So there was just, in fact, it was so shortly after 9/11, September 11, 2001 is when we saw the nation come to a big pause, and we started our company January 2 of 2002. Everybody told us we were dumb, and my business partners and I, we just did the work. We had been involved in a company prior called Bitstream Underground. We started out as an internet service provider that two of my business partners started in 1994. I joined them in 1995/96, and that company was acquired in 2001. And we pretty much walked out the door and started a new company very quickly on the heels of that.

We had a lot of experience to build our company philosophy and our strategy and vision from, and we were very intentional about how we wanted to move forward. So, it wasn’t like we were accidental entrepreneurs. This time it was very intentional, and we all did the work.

The people around me were Chuck Hermes, one of my business partners, Michael Koppelman, Kurt Koppelman, and at first it was just us, and we were in our basement. In that sense it was the stereotypical tech company start, but it wasn’t very long before we moved into a little building in Northeast Minneapolis called the Apiary, We hired our first person in the first year. Really the entire company was built on relationships that had begun in the context of our time at Bitstream Underground, which was one of the early internet service providers in Minneapolis, St. Paul, and actually became a premiere internet service provider for residential customers. And started doing that in 1994, and in 1995 we built our first website. I think our first professional client was BASF. So, it was really a natural progression, and we sold that company, and then we started a new company, and that was Clockwork, and our new company was really entirely grounded on the insights we gleaned from our first time out.

IVAN: You know, I had no idea you had the background with Bitstream. That makes a lot of sense now. So, Bitstream became IP House, right?

NANCY: Bitstream was acquired ultimately by IP House, yes. It went through a few hands, but IP House has what remains and grew from. There’s still some Bitstream addresses there. There are still people who use the Bitstream address.

IVAN: And there was VISI as well, right? How was that connected?

NANCY: So VISI wasn’t. It was just a competitor, but at that time, before the telcos came in and monopolized internet services, it was really a very cooperative business to be in. So we had great relationships with Bill McLeslie, who went on to build IP House, and with the folks at VISI. Michael Koppelman, my business partner, was really seen as one of the visionaries in the internet space here in the Twin Cities in that he was one of the people responsible for really starting the conversation around internet technologies and the advantage to tapping into those for business very early, before it was at all mainstream.

He made an interesting career in that he went to the Berklee School of Music, got a degree in music, left to work for Prince, and Prince got him involved in some technology stuff. He figured out the internet. He left working at Paisley Park and Warner Brothers, started Bitstream Underground, and now he brews beer. But in between all of those ventures, he also went back to school and got another degree in astrophysics and built an observatory in Chaska and captured a gamma ray burst on film and became one the of few amateur astronomers to be able to say that they’ve done that. In fact, he might be the only amateur astronomer. I don’t want to misrepresent him, but I believe he’s the only amateur astronomer to capture a gamma ray burst on film. So, he’s a really interesting guy.

IVAN: I think we need to have him on the podcast.

NANCY: I think you will too. Do you want me to just hang up and you can call him right now?

IVAN: No, not now. [laughing]

NANCY: [laughing] Because he is something else. I can get him on the phone for you in short order.

IVAN: That would be awesome. I would love to talk with him. Did you know my background is in physics?

NANCY: I did not, but you would love him. The two of you would geek out.

IVAN: I would love to talk to him. Oh man, that’s great. So, are any of the original actors, the original founders still involved with Clockwork in any way?

NANCY: In a board capacity, yes. They all sit on our board, and they are great advisors and dear friends. So, yes, they are no longer involved in the day to day, but we are very close, and we see each other frequently. So, yes.

IVAN: So, how early on in your leadership of Clockwork did you figure out it was actually about the people and not about the work?

NANCY: I think we figured that out at Bitstream. I remember doing an interview with a magazine back in the mid-nineties where they asked me what my legacy would be and I said, “I don’t think my legacy’s going to be websites, I think it’s going to be people, and the impact, working at an organization that I lead will have on their lives, and the opportunities that they’ll be able to discover for themselves after having been at Bitstream.” At the time, it was Bitstream in my thinking.

But, I really think that a lot of the cultural conversation around work right now, and people at work, started when the internet started to change how we worked. I’m a pretty classic Gen Xer, and it was our desire as Gen Xers and non-conformists to want to do things a little differently at work, so we really were just trying to build a place for ourselves.

But, in order to do that we had to amplify the conversation and really try to move the needle a little bit on expectations at work. So, I think a lot of the frustration or tension that happens between generations at work has always been in place. I think we were your textbook Gen Xers and we just wanted a workplace that felt good, that valued our contribution, that wasn’t so worried about traditional professionalism, but really wanted to tap into our brains. And at the time, the only place to have that workplace was to build it, so, that’s what we did.

IVAN: You did that at Bitstream and at Clockwork and you’ve been going strong ever since.

NANCY: Yes. And I think it’s important to note too, that it’s only been in the last probably five years that the mainstream of the industry has embraced the importance of the user, and we always have. So, we’ve been calling ourselves a user experience company since 1990-whatever. I think it’s also important to recognize that we have customers externally, so we’re a customer experience company, but we’re also really clear on the fact that the people that we work with are also customers of our culture, of our philosophies, our vision, and so we have an experience lens that we view everything we do through, and I think that is something that we’ve always been committed to.

IVAN: I think you’re spot on. It’s not just about clients and it’s not just about employees, it’s about all of us as humans working together to make something better, whether it’s at the workplace, or home, or in our society, or wherever it may be. I like the fact that you bring that kind of lens and that perspective to leading a company, and I think more leaders need that kind of idea in their head.

NANCY: Yeah, totally. Actually, I just finished a book that is going to launch on September 29, and so we’re just starting to build out the publicity and the marketing plan and the speaking and ultimately the book tour. But it really talks about personal accountability, for what it feels like at work, and personal accountability for culture and health at work. Because I do think, yes, culture begins and ends with leadership, but it’s everyone’s responsibility. I don’t know that work happens in a climate that really grasps the importance of activating culture at a level that everyone can participate in, and really giving everybody accountability or responsibility for how work and culture feels.

IVAN: Let’s actually boil that down. I feel like I know what I mean when I say culture, and when I talk about the culture at TEN7 and what our values are, and we have certain values, and this is what we expect our employees and our clients to all live up to, right? What do you mean by culture? What does it boil down to?

NANCY: Yeah, I mean I think at the day, culture is what it feels like to be at work. Do you feel valued and respected? Do you feel heard and seen? Do you feel like you are contributing to something that’s meaningful? All of that plays into culture and I think in the best cultures, energy is palpable. You feel it when you walk through the door, you know that you are in a place that is safe and embracing and open and ready to hear and tap into your thinking. I think all of that falls under the values. Are you who you say you are? I think most organizations are really comfortable talking about values when it comes to their marketing speak, but there’s a difference between the values that are spoken and the values that are lived. I think when the values are lived it is something that you feel, and that is culture.

IVAN: That’s a very good description.

NANCY: Thanks. I do my best.

IVAN: Yeah, and I think I agree with what you said. How do you deal with people who you’ve hired who you deemed are a good hire because of all of the reasons you have for hiring someone. But who turn out to be more interested in the fact that you are an employer and you are providing a paycheck and just want to punch in and punch out? Do you have a responsibility as an employer to engage them more, or to have them not feel that way? Or is it your responsibility to let them go?

NANCY: Well, interestingly enough, I think that we have an environment that demands accountability, and I think that people that don’t live up to the expectations of our culture and our work life actually self-select themselves out. So, I think it’s less about me forcing somebody out and more about them realizing that we are not an organization in which you can hide. And we’re not an organization that allows for a work ethic that’s less than those around you. So, I don’t find myself confronted with too many opportunities where I’m feeling the urge or the need to eliminate someone, because I think that our culture of accountability helps them do it themselves.

IVAN: What does a new employee experience look like at Clockwork? What does that first day, first week—I hate the word “onboarding”—look like for someone who is just getting to start working at Clockwork?

NANCY: I think it’s pretty intense. I will say that we have gotten a lot of feedback about our onboarding, and I’m proud to say that generally speaking, the onboarding is very well received and thorough. That’s the feedback we’ve received, that people appreciate it. I’ve heard from many people that it’s the best process they’ve been through in starting in a new company. A lot of that is in large part due to the leadership team here who is always thinking about ways to improve that process because it could be so overwhelming.

I think when people start here, there’s a lot of reading, because we’ve done our homework. The first thing that happens when somebody gets hired is John, who’s an executive assistant here, schedules everybody out for the first two weeks. So they have one-on-ones with the leadership team, they’re assigned a buddy who they’ll then work with who will show them the ropes, and be an advocate for them in their first two weeks, or three weeks, when it’s tough for somebody to sort of speak up, and those relationships can sometimes last for much longer than that.

So, they have a series of conversations, they have a series of meetings, they have a person that’s advocating for them and helping them navigate their way in this unfamiliar place, and then they have a lot of reading, different protocols and policies—but I don’t want to make it sound as if we are really weighted down in policy because we aren’t. But I do think what you get from us in those first couple of weeks, is a schedule that helps you wade through the framework of thinking that is the foundation of Clockwork. Then each of the people that you meet layer in some additional thinking and nuance and skill sets and attitudes. I hear from people a lot that "it’s a lot, and it’s great. I’m okay with that combination.I think people leave here and they probably want to take a nap. They probably want to go home and go to bed at 7:00 p.m. because it can be overwhelming.

I also think that we are in the habit of hiring really smart people. When that happens, you have a lot of people who are used to being the smartest person in the room. I think just realizing that you’re not the only one anymore and settling into the rhythm of a group of people, a team of people, that operate from that place, is a challenge. But I think we work really hard to really wrap our arms around new people and welcome them in.

The other thing that I think is really important is, we’ve got a real commitment to equity, and psychological safety, and so we really try to read a person, understand their cues, ask them directly what they need from us to be most effective in their jobs. Then we have some social activities in those first couple of weeks. Usually it’s a team lunch, it could be some additional lunches with your direct supervisor. There’s a variety of ways that we personalize that experience for every new hire.

IVAN: Do you do any DiSC analysis or any personality test ahead of time or as part of the onboarding?

NANCY: No. We have a very peer-based hiring process. So, I usually meet people at the very, very end, and it’s really about me getting a vibe. By the time they get to me, we’re pretty close to offering them an opportunity here. But they go through a lot. In some cases, we’ve even had people complain about the length of an interview process, and I feel bad about that, but I think the conversations we try to have are not so complicated that we’re trying to stump them, because you can learn a lot about the job on the job regardless of where you come from or what your technological background is. But I think we’re really trying to get a sense of the quality of person and work ethic in those conversations, and sometimes that takes a while.

So, I would say that it’s a series of interviews with your peers in various settings, with various approaches to the conversations before you get hired. Now, after people are hired, organizationally, we have commitments to ongoing training that we make every year. So, every year we do communication style training, and we help people determine their own communication style. Are they a promoter? Are they an analyzer? Are they a supporter? Are they a controller? I myself am a promoter/controller. Once we work with them and determine where they fit in terms of communication style, on the accountability chart, we actually include their communication style because then, when we’re restructuring teams or collaborating around new team developments, we’re able to balance the teams with complementary communication styles, which I think is really helpful.

Because if we had a whole team of analyzers, they would take much longer to make a decision than a team that’s balanced out a little differently. Or, if we had a whole team of controllers, that’s a lot of drivers and very few supporters—I mean, there’s no supporters if we have a whole team of controllers—and I think that leads to tension. So, I think we try to be really mindful of the different kinds of personalities and skill sets and communication types.

Then we commit to other trainings too. Like we’ve got somebody coming to teach us presentation skills in the next couple weeks—we’re actually sharing that with a couple other small businesses—we’re paying a speaker to come in and do a day-long session on different presentation skills.

We’ve done some pretty significant training in race equity, because we want to walk the walk in the work that we are trying to do with race equity in action and really making a difference in the tech space in Minnesota. So that as an industry we’re not so homogenized, and we are making space for and creating opportunity for more black, indigenous and people of color, women, LGBTQ+ people. We’re really trying to be intentionally involved in changing the face of tech in Minnesota.

So, we do a lot of things after they’re hired. But I have never been a fan of personality tests, if you will, because I think I’m interested in the whole of people, and I wouldn’t want them to feel like they had to censor themselves, and I wouldn’t want them to feel like they were being evaluated based on their weirdness because I want us to embrace the weirdness.

IVAN: Embrace the weird, I love it. Now you mentioned an accountability chart, as something that you add to, whether they’re a supporter or analyzer or controller. Can you tell me more about the accountability chart?

NANCY: Sure. We actually are a company that practices the EOS methodology, so the entrepreneurial operating system, and we did away with an org chart long ago and replaced it with an accountability chart. We really try to be relatively flat in terms of hierarchy. It’s my hope and my wish that great ideas and good thinking can come from every level of the organization, but we do need to be really clear on who is accountable for what, and that’s where that chart comes into play.

Actually, we have accountabilities at every level of the organization, and we also have team accountability charts. So, we understand what every role shows up with, and we understand what teams are accountable for, and they try to monitor and measure that from week to week.

IVAN: Thank you for explaining that. I’ve heard of EOS and have seen its uptick with agency leaders in the last couple years, but it seems like a system that’s more geared towards medium-to-large size businesses and not small companies like my own, that are less than 10 people.

NANCY: You know, I’ve certainly recommended it to smaller companies and here’s why: I think, had we started doing it when we were smaller, it would have better prepared us for growth. I don’t know that every aspect of EOS applies absolutely to agencies or digital studios, but I do believe that the way that it allows you to have a pulse on your business is super helpful.

And I think entrepreneurs just dive into the business without coming up with the appropriate systems. What EOS helps you do is, sort of retroactively, put those systems in place. That’s great, but I think, had I had an opportunity to do that earlier, I probably would’ve benefited from it sooner. So, I don’t think it’s out of the question for a small company. I actually recommended it to a two-person company. I know a four-person company that uses it.

IVAN: [laughing] Okay, so maybe I should revisit that. How big is Clockwork right now? How many humans?

NANCY: About 60 people.

IVAN: 60? Is everyone located in Minneapolis? I saw on your website that you have a San Diego office as well.

NANCY: We do. We have a few people that are distributed. We're definitely working a more distributed network of staff, and I think in order to compete in this space we have to do that, obviously. The problem is, because we have a great culture and because we focus so heavily on it being healthy, people want to be in the space.

Now, we have extra space in our Minneapolis “campus,”—which I’ll call it, because it’s a couple of buildings—we have that extra space because our clients collaborate with us, and we created, very intentionally, larger community spaces, and that’s what we really use our buildings for. I would say that anybody here would tell you that just like you with your distributed team, we get our best work and the most work probably done at home. So, we balance between having the physical space, the centralized space, where we can go and collaborate and that’s fine, and really starting to look outwards at how we want to build our teams and how we want to embrace new opportunities.

We have a single office in San Diego, just to have a presence in Southern California. In fact, I was just supposed to go to Los Angeles next week and had to cancel it because they just declared it a state of emergency because of Coronavirus today. We wanted a place in Southern California very deliberately. We were able to make that happen. We had a place in Austin, but Austin is a really saturated market.

I do think that a lot of smaller agencies do try and experiment that way. I’m not someone who does a big flashy press release every time we have an opportunity to have a front door someplace. It’s really about client location and our ability to collaborate with them in short order and their needs, and this just turned out to be a solid solution for us.

IVAN: Is there a remote work policy at Clockwork that you can talk about?

NANCY: There are policies. We are very, very flexible, so, for us, we are a results-oriented work environment, and one of our core values is, we tell the truth, we keep our promises. And when we review people, we review their performance based on how they reflect those values. So it really externalizes, not whether or not I love the work you’re doing, it’s, do you tell the truth, and do you keep your promises.

So, if you are committed to a team, and your job is to deliver on X, I honestly don’t care where you do it or when you do it, as long as you do do it. So, our remote policy is really on each individual to decide how they want to take advantage of remote opportunities and to deliver on their promises. We have people that, their day to day looks like all sorts of things. Some people stay home every Friday. Some people stay home every Monday. Some people are in the office every single day. Some people are in at 7 a.m. and out at 2. But they’re doing their work and submitting their hours.

And we have six client-facing agile teams, so some of them are on client sites, some of them are working in the office together, some are working remotely together. They really make their own rules. Because we’re agile teams and we’re working in an agile fashion, it’s not about hours, per se, but we still work with clients that want to see that contribution. So, we flex based on client needs and the commitments we make to each other.

IVAN: I like that you’ve been talking about almost a hybrid situation where you have some people at home, some people in the office, and that you collaborate in the spaces with your clients. You’ve said in an interview before it’s not about work life balance, it’s life balance. We bring our work home, and we bring our life to work. I really like the way that sounds. It’s very inclusive of the humanity that each of us has, and that we’re not really compartmentalized, this person at home, this person at work. How do you live this every day?

NANCY: I think that just the underlying philosophy of valuing each human and their contribution and their unique perspective and view of the world is the core of that philosophy. I think that work has changed, culture has changed. How we operate now is so different than what it was when we first started talking about work. In fact, that’s something I talk about in the book that I just turned in to my publisher. A lot of what we do at work everyday was decided 150 years ago when we were industrialized. And, it’s so hard for us to change, and some of that stuff is so entrenched in our DNA that we just don’t. And yet, I think our entire identities are tied up in work, whereas when the industrial revolution came about, that wasn’t the case. The people that were doing the jobs, their identity wasn’t their work, it was who they were. Now we carry our work everywhere with us. We’re always on, always connected. When I’m in the shower I think sometimes as much about work as when I’m sitting at my desk. So I think balance is up to the individual. One of the things that I always stressed upon my leadership team is—we have people on our leadership team who work a lot, not because I want that for them, but because that’s who they are. We have people on our teams who work a lot, that’s who they are.

So, I find myself actually working with them to try and pull back versus getting them to work more. I want people to take vacations. I want them to take care of their mental health. I want them to take their breaks and practice self-care. But just because I want it doesn’t mean it’s going to happen.

And I do think that the working world needs to learn better boundaries and needs to understand what the advantages of those boundaries are, because it’s not the clock anymore.The boundary is not determined by your time schedule, it’s determined by your mental ability to shut off and walk away and decide when to connect and when to not connect. I think having a workplace that respects and values people but understands the realities of work, makes it easier to set those boundaries and to abide by them.

IVAN: You talked about how you were the last, one of the last stops when you’re hiring someone, how one of the things you’re looking at is a vibe that you might get from the person that you’re hiring. There has been a criticism of hiring for cultural fit, that it reduces diversity because all new hires look and think alike. That it also risks passing biases to the products and the services you might create.

I think I can understand the logic behind it, and the articles that have been written about that, and I know you’re committed to equity and to diversity at Clockwork. What’s your take on the whole cultural fit thing? The criticism, the articles that have been written. What do you think about that?

NANCY: I think it is a problematic phrase, and it’s problematic because the implication is, if you fit you are like me. And I think if all we do is hire other people like us, we aren’t challenging ourselves to create better work product, and we aren’t bringing in the varying perspectives and experiences and ways of being and thinking that will contribute to a better end product. So, I do think cultural fit is a problem.

I think what I’m looking for, especially in those final meetings, is cultural contribution. I mentioned earlier that I like weirdness, and I want to create a safe space for people, and I want to create a sense of belonging. That’s my job as a leader, is to create a place where people want to be and where they feel like they belong. And if we create that space and they experience that energy, then they are safe to contribute, even if what they are contributing challenges what we, the rest of us, might be comfortable with. Because that’s what will make the work product better. So, it’s not about everybody’s comfort all the time. It’s about everybody’s openness to that discomfort, and the safety to challenge different ideas and perspectives and ways of being, and the way things have always been.

The only way we’re going to innovate is if we have people that come in that don’t think like us, that prod us into thinking differently. and exploring new territory, and challenging ourselves to be better, and using language that’s new to us, and trying new things.

I just got done telling you I’ve been in the technology business in the internet technology business for 25 years. It is not new to me anymore. Some people in the world are still marveling at the newness of the internet. My entire career has been spent here, and if I don’t invite teachers in, we will not learn.

IVAN: I love the nuance of the difference between cultural fit versus cultural contribution, and I think just by changing the vernacular and the language that we use, it’s so powerful to be able to think of it as a different cultural contribution than simply being like us, or like me, or think like me. I think that’s very powerful. That’s going to stick around with me for a while now. Thank you for that.

NANCY: Nice.

IVAN: I want to just finish off and close out by asking a little bit about your book that you’ve mentioned.

NANCY: Okay.

IVAN: What can you tell us about the title? Is there a title yet? When can we expect it? I think you mentioned that the book is more towards the end of the year. Is there anymore light that you can shed?

NANCY: Yeah. I would love to do a plug for my book if you’re going to let me.

IVAN: Yeah, do it. Absolutely.

NANCY: So the book is called Work Like a Boss, and the subtitle is A Kick in the Pants Guide to Finding and Using Your Power at Work. And as I mentioned earlier, it’s really about personal accountability for the health and the energy at work, and personal accountability for finding your own satisfaction, joy and power at work. I’ve got some pre-readers combing through it right now and the feedback that I’m already receiving—and in fact feedback that I received this morning, which I will share with you—said that it’s really full of insightful thinking and succinct actionable insights that people can apply to making their work lives and their workplaces better. Somebody said that to me just this morning, a pre-reader.

So, I’m super excited about it because when you’re writing something you don’t know if it’s any good, and you think you might be on to something but you’re not really sure, and so it was a really vulnerable thing for me to start sharing the manuscript with people, to get some feedback around content that is really resonating. And I’m getting some positive response, so I’m really excited. The book is set to launch on September 29, and so we’ll be doing some pre-sales within the next couple of months, actually.

And, if your audience is interested in the book or interested in getting a copy or hearing about the tour, they can actually— are you ready for this—they can text the word “boss” to 33777 and they’ll be added to a list to hear more about the book and know exactly when it launches and find out events that will surround that book launch.

IVAN: One more time with the number.

NANCY: The number is 33777.

IVAN: And you text the word “boss”?

NANCY: Boss. Exactly.

IVAN: I just did it, let’s see what happens.

NANCY: Alright. [laughing] Exciting.

IVAN: [laughing] Very exciting.

NANCY: All the data charges are on you, man. They’re on you.

IVAN: Oh man. [laughing] Okay. I see how it is. Nancy, it’s been so great talking to you. I so much appreciate your time and the general wisdom that you’ve imparted to me and to our audience, and it’s just been wonderful kind of shooting the breeze with you here.

NANCY: Oh, thank you. It’s been a real pleasure. It’s always nice to talk to you, and if you’re ever at a ladies lunch that I might be at, I’ll look forward to seeing you again soon.

IVAN: Thank you, that’s awesome. [laughing]

NANCY: [laughing] Take it easy.

IVAN: Nancy Lyons is an all-around good human who happens to be the founder and CEO of Clockwork. You can find her online at and on social media she’s @nylons. You can also visit Clockwork online at and if you’re interested in her new book, text “boss” to 33777. You’ve been listening to The TEN7 Podcast. Find us online at And if you have a second, do send us a message. We love hearing from you. Our email address is [email protected]. Until next time, this is Ivan Stegic. Thank you for listening.

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